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Question about records
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nuccia
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

If the baby was already still born, then there would be no death record. It would be recorded on the birth act (as it was) as a still born. At least, this has been my experience so far.

Eight months apart is not really unheard of... It can happen. I think Luca is right. We would need more information on this one.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 10:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

Parents names for Salvatore Monte:
Gaetano Monte and Teresa Santangelo.
Salvatore Monte was born in Belmonte Mezzagno although he married Anna Licata in San Giuseppa. Carmela who is mentioned in the letters is the oldest child and the one who returned to Belmonte after a short stay in America. The reasons for Carmela's return to Sicily are the stuff of family gossip.

Parents names for Anna Licata:
Calogero Licata and Maria Lo Vecchio.
Anna Licata was born in San Giuseppe Jato in 1865 and died in the US in 1956. As a child I remember members of my grandmother's family coming to visit her in Salem, NJ. We lived across the street from my grandmother, my Uncle Joe lived beside my grandmother and my Aunt Josie lived beside my Uncle Joe. My Aunt Anna lived on the same street just a block away. There was hardly a day when I didn't spend time at my grandmother's house as a child so the odds are quite good that I met most of her family with the exception of Carmela and her father. Sorry, I got carried away there. It's surprising what you can come up with when you start connecting memories.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:40 am    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

Sorry for italian.

Il fatto che tu, Tom, già conosca i nomi dei genitori di Salvatore ed Anna facilità ma non risolve definitivamente il problema. Cioè: dovresti provare con i registri parrocchiali per verificare se è riportato sul battesimo di Calogero e Giuseppa anche il nome dei nonni, così sarai certo al 100% se ci sia omonimia fra due coppie (anche se io penso che sia semplicemente un parto prematuro di 6-7 mesi). Prova comunque a cercare la nascita di un altro Calogero nel 1899 o 1900; penso che dovresti trovarlo.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

The consensus seems to be that church records will be more useful in answering the questions raised regarding the children I've mentioned in this thread. I welcome advice on obtaining copies of church records.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

Luca wrote:
Sorry for italian.

Il fatto che tu, Tom, già conosca i nomi dei genitori di Salvatore ed Anna facilità ma non risolve definitivamente il problema. Cioè: dovresti provare con i registri parrocchiali per verificare se è riportato sul battesimo di Calogero e Giuseppa anche il nome dei nonni, così sarai certo al 100% se ci sia omonimia fra due coppie (anche se io penso che sia semplicemente un parto prematuro di 6-7 mesi). Prova comunque a cercare la nascita di un altro Calogero nel 1899 o 1900; penso che dovresti trovarlo.

Ciao
Luca

Translation:
The fact is that you, Tom, already knowing the names of Salvatore and Anna's parents will facilitate but not solve the problem once and for all. That is: you need to try with the parish registers to verify if the names of the grandparents are reported on the baptism records of Calogero and Giuseppa, that way you will be 100% certain if there is, that they happen to have the same name as another couple (even if I think that it is simply a case of a premature birth of 6-7 months). But try looking for the birth of another Calogero in 1899 r 1900; I think you should find him.
Ciao,
Luca

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

Il problema non è che i registri parrocchiali sono più utili, ma che sui documenti civili che tu hai postato, il nome dei nonni non c'è, per cui (anche se ho già detto che non credo ci fossero due coppie omonime) per essere maggiormente sicuri si può vedere se sui registri parrocchiali c'è questa indicazione (ma non è scontato che tali informazioni vi siano).
Dove siano questi registri (in riferimento a S. Giuseppe Jato) io non lo so; spero che altri possano aiutarti.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:09 am    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

Some clarifications (They are a little articulated so I need to do them in italian; then if you can't understand it, tell me and I'll try a translation).

Ci sono 2 problemi separati.
Il primo è stabilire se potevano esserci 2 differenti coppie con lo stesso nome (io lo ritengo improbabile). Per chiarire questo particolare potresti consultare i registri dei matrimoni e vedere se ci sono due matrimoni con gli stessi nomi (ma non è detto che possano essersi sposati nello stesso posto e, per giunta, non sappiamo neanche il periodo nel quale questi potrebbero essersi celebrati). Quindi rimane valida l'alternativa, riportata sopra, di consultare (se è possibile trovarli sui microfilm) i registri parrocchiali.
Il secondo è stabilire quando è nato Calogero. Per ottenere una risposta puoi provare a consultare tutti i registri dei nati antecedenti e successivi al 1898 (a partire dalla data del matrimonio fino al 1900-1902 circa) e vedere se esce fuori (e ci deve stare!) l'altro Calogero. Anche in questo caso (sempre che siano microfilmati!) poresti provare a confrontarli con i registri parrocchiali (soprattutto per vedere se è registrata la nascita di Calogero nel 1898: visto che è nato morto potrebbe non essere stato battezzato e quindi non comparire affatto. A volte le levatrici quando capivano che il neonato stava per morire o era già morto dicevano: "e io ti battezzo, nel nome del padre, del Figlio e dello Spirito Santo" poi riferivano al prete che respirava al momento della nascita, ma constatato che stava per morire lei si era permesso di battezzarlo; il prete a quel punto riportava il battesimo sul registro con l'annotazione che lo stesso era stato impartito dalla levatrice perché il neonato era "ab imminente periculo mortis" salvandolo così - almeno nell'intento della levatrice, e per la coscienza dei genitori - dall'inferno dei non batezzati).

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

Luca wrote:
Il problema non è che i registri parrocchiali sono più utili, ma che sui documenti civili che tu hai postato, il nome dei nonni non c'è, per cui (anche se ho già detto che non credo ci fossero due coppie omonime) per essere maggiormente sicuri si può vedere se sui registri parrocchiali c'è questa indicazione (ma non è scontato che tali informazioni vi siano).
Dove siano questi registri (in riferimento a S. Giuseppe Jato) io non lo so; spero che altri possano aiutarti.

Luca

Translation:
The problem isn't that the parish registers are more useful, but that in the civil documents that you have posted, the name of the grandparents is not there, so (even if have said that I don't believe that the two couples happen to have the same name) to be even more certain you could look to see if in the parochial records this is indicated (but it can't be discounted that there is such information). Where are these registers (in reference to those in S. Giuseppe Jato) I don't know; I hope that others can help you.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

Luca wrote:
... A volte le levatrici quando capivano che il neonato stava per morire o era già morto dicevano: "e io ti battezzo, nel nome del padre, del Figlio e dello Spirito Santo" poi riferivano al prete che respirava al momento della nascita, ma constatato che stava per morire lei si era permesso di battezzarlo; il prete a quel punto riportava il battesimo sul registro con l'annotazione che lo stesso era stato impartito dalla levatrice perché il neonato era "ab imminente periculo mortis" salvandolo così - almeno nell'intento della levatrice, e per la coscienza dei genitori - dall'inferno dei non batezzati).
Luca

This is an example

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

Luca wrote:
Some clarifications (They are a little articulated so I need to do them in italian; then if you can't understand it, tell me and I'll try a translation).

Ci sono 2 problemi separati.
Il primo è stabilire se potevano esserci 2 differenti coppie con lo stesso nome (io lo ritengo improbabile). Per chiarire questo particolare potresti consultare i registri dei matrimoni e vedere se ci sono due matrimoni con gli stessi nomi (ma non è detto che possano essersi sposati nello stesso posto e, per giunta, non sappiamo neanche il periodo nel quale questi potrebbero essersi celebrati). Quindi rimane valida l'alternativa, riportata sopra, di consultare (se è possibile trovarli sui microfilm) i registri parrocchiali.
Il secondo è stabilire quando è nato Calogero. Per ottenere una risposta puoi provare a consultare tutti i registri dei nati antecedenti e successivi al 1898 (a partire dalla data del matrimonio fino al 1900-1902 circa) e vedere se esce fuori (e ci deve stare!) l'altro Calogero. Anche in questo caso (sempre che siano microfilmati!) poresti provare a confrontarli con i registri parrocchiali (soprattutto per vedere se è registrata la nascita di Calogero nel 1898: visto che è nato morto potrebbe non essere stato battezzato e quindi non comparire affatto. A volte le levatrici quando capivano che il neonato stava per morire o era già morto dicevano: "e io ti battezzo, nel nome del padre, del Figlio e dello Spirito Santo" poi riferivano al prete che respirava al momento della nascita, ma constatato che stava per morire lei si era permesso di battezzarlo; il prete a quel punto riportava il battesimo sul registro con l'annotazione che lo stesso era stato impartito dalla levatrice perché il neonato era "ab imminente periculo mortis" salvandolo così - almeno nell'intento della levatrice, e per la coscienza dei genitori - dall'inferno dei non batezzati).

Luca

Translation:
There are two separate problems:
The first is to establish if there could have been 2 different couples with the same name (I maintain that this is unlikely). To clarify these particulars you could consult the marriage registers and see if there are weddings with the same names (but that's not to say that they could have been married in the same place and, in addition we don't even know the period in which these might have been celebrated). Hence there remains the valid alternative, spoken of above, to consult (if it is possible to find them on microfilm) the parochial registers.

The second is to establish when Calogero was born. To obtain a reply you could try checking all the registers of the births prior to and following 1898 (starting with the date of the wedding up to about 1900-1902 ) and see if anything shows up (and you must persevere!) of the other Calogero. Even in this case (always allowing that there are microfilms!) you coulld try comparing them with the parochial records (above all to see if the birth of Calogero is registered in1898: seeing that he was born dead it could be that he wasn't baptised and so he doesn't in fact appear. Sometimes the midwives when they realised that the newborn was about to die or was already dead said "and I baptise you, in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" then told the priest that the child was breathing at the moment of birth, but verified that as it was about to die she took it on herself to baptise him/her, the priest at that point would report the baptism in the register with the note that the bleesing had been given by the midwife because the child was "in imminent danger of death" saving him in this way - at least in the eyes of the midwife, and for the conscience of the parents - from the hell of the non baptised.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

Carole sei impeccabile (e stacanovista!) kiss (I hope my wife will never see this kiss Embarassed )

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

Luca wrote:
Carole sei impeccabile (e stacanovista!) kiss (I hope my wife will never see this kiss Embarassed )

Luca

I promise not to tell your wife, but I'm far to old for you sweetheart... kiss

Am I really an 'stacanovista??? LOL

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

Carole wrote:

I promise not to tell your wife, but I'm far to old for you sweetheart... kiss You don't know how old am I!!!

Am I really an 'stacanovista???
stacanovìsta:
(pl. m. -ìsti), s. m. e f.
chi è favorevole allo stacanovismo o lo applica
iron. chi dimostra un fervore particolare e spesso (ma non sempre, aggiungo io) eccessivo nel compiere il proprio lavoro
. LOL

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

I really need to learn Italian. I expected genealogy but I didn't realize that I was going to get a free pass to Comedy Central lol

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Question about records Reply with quote

I will go to FHC this week to review more carefully the microfilm from San Giuseppe. The one I have is Nati, pubblicazioni, matrimoni, cittadinanze, morti 1885-1902 - FHL INTL Film [1916714 Items 1-17]. I don't think the film is complete. There are only one or two other films available from San Giuseppe that might be helpful at this point in my inquiry and others may prove useful as I accumulate more information. Suggestions on how to obtain copies of church records would be helpful.
Atti Di Nascita were not included for all of the years listed for this microfilm.

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