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Community Forums › How Can I locate my Family in Italy › Southern Italy › HUGE Death act errors?

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HUGE Death act errors?

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Cathy
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:54 am    Post subject: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

Last night I found the marriage records and processcetti records of my great great grandparents. Because I thought I had everything I needed for them years ago I never bothered to look for these records. When I first began looking at the records I found the death act of my g g grandmother in 1904. I have had this for several years and have traced her lines back based on the information provided on her death act. Caterina Nicastro’s (my g g grandmother) death act clearly listed her father as Giuseppe Nicastro and her mother as Carmela Alfano. I found many other children for them and traced their ancestry (well his anyway – I never got around to Carmela). The death act clearly listed her as the wife of the living Filippo Napolitano. This death act was definitely my g g grandmother’s without a doubt.
Last night the processcetti had Caterina Nicastro’s birth act which listed her parents as Francesco Nicastro and Isabella Fullone! I almost fell off my chair. Shocked I found a total of 4 other documents which listed her parents the same way! I am so confused! Since both her parents were living at the time of her marriage I found no additional data.
How can her death act be wrong? Has anyone else found such a huge error in the records before? Is it safe to assume the marriage documents are correct? It is difficult to disagree with a birth act!
Of course I went out on the archive as soon as I got home and only found one other child for Francesco and Isabella Fullone. It’s all very strange.

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

I cannot think of such a huge error in a death act. Did you check all the dates?
I tend to believe that there are two people both called Caterina Nicastro. It could also be that their fathers (Giuseppe and Francesco) were siblings.

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Cathy
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 2:57 pm    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

I could not beleive it either Livio but it listed her husband as the living Filippo Napolitano and her age matched perfectly. Filippo did outlive her by a few years. She died at age 80 in 1904. Her birth act in the processcetti (and everything I had prior like her ages on her children's birth acts) had her birth year in 1824. I should mention that Giuseppe's father was Francesco but his mother was Caterina Scarlato who died in 1822. (I descend from them on the other side of the family) I should also mention that the only other Filippo Napolitano's I have found in Montalto are the grandchildren of this Filippo and Caterina. I guess I should look for marriages of Giuseppe and his 2 wives. And Francesco to Isabella Fullone (I do not have that film...sigh).

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

Oh Cathy that is soooo frustrating.
It reminded me of when I was tracing my grandfathers brothers etc
Grandfathers name was Giovambattista De filippis and his parents names
Domenico and MariaGiuseppa Fionda then I found another birth for a Giovambattista several years later with the same parents ' names.
I thought the first Giovan.. had perhaps died and they had named the other child after him but later I discovered they were two different families who may have been closley related (the first one born was my grandfather!!)
I've got a similar problem at the moment going back a few generations re a Benedetta Coletta who seems to be appearing in two different documents in processettis now making me think the same as Livio that they are not the same person but closely related.
Before, I found only a few Defilippis ancestors in Sant'Elia but now in Acquafondata there seems to be lots of them most of them living in the same street!!!!!and it seems they kept things 'in the family' where marriages were concerned Rolling Eyes well two families Wink
Hope you get it all sorted out - fingers crossed!!
Emmy xx

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

Cathy..if it is an error, perhaps someone had it amended. My great, great grandfather had his birth recorded incorrectly in 1883. It stated his uncle as his father ( or something screwy like that). Well when he moved to the USA he never naturalized and I always wondered why. He lived there for over 25 years and really was an "American" at heart so it didn't seem right. He even gave up his wife and family to continue living in the US. Later, his niece sent me a box with his belongings and in it I found an official document requesting an amendment to his birth act. It was written only a few years before he died so I concluded:
1. He couldn't naturalize because his birth act was incorrect and so he mailed away for the amendment.
2. And it explained the relationship between his mistaken father/uncle and the nickname they used when referring to him. You see, everyone knew the birth act was wrong but no one bothered with it because to them, it wasn't important (until it was time for the Naturalization).

I will scan the record (amendment) so you can see it. Keep in mind, the death act you have may not have been amended though since it wouldn't have been important to anyone other than the deceased (just a thought of course).

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:55 pm    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

My 2 cents.
Who made the declaration for the death of Caterina? Maybe he was not well informed about her parents, so he could have stated a not real situation. He knew very well the name of the husband because he was still alive, but, perhaps, he never did know Caterina's parents so he made confusion.
Or more, he didn't remember the names so the officier could have take the registers of those years for searching the missing informations and he could have found another Caterina Nicastro (a cousin, for example).
It's just a guess, of course.

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Cathy
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

Thanks Luca! You may be right...Filippo was not on the record (he was 90 by this time so he may have been senile). Just 4 young kids (in their early 20's) 2 of which I cannot connect to my family yet - they were neighbors. I guess I better order that microfilm! Embarassed So I guess I will wait until I find more before I ask Nuccia to add Fullone to my surnames on the datebase! Crying or Very sad

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

By the way, we talked about you here in Italy Wink ( www.tuttogenealogia.it...napolitano ).

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

Its nice to be talked about again! hehe I know who that is! Very Happy I told him about you here Luca. I did not know he already knew who you were. I got more Latin documents for him last night!

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

Cathy wrote:
...I got more Latin documents for him last night!
... and, probably, i will be asked for a translation Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 8:09 pm    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

Probably...from both of us! Wink I know I have some for you on my family! hide

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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

Nuccia,
How did your great great-grandfather have his birthdate in 1883 amended? Just found out the birthdate on grandfather's original atto di nascita which was registered by the midwife listed the date as 8 February 1864, born in Potenza - all his US documents (he lived in US for 44 years and was never naturalized) have his birth date as 3 February 1864 (date family always knew it to be). He was baptised on 10 February 1864 in San Michele (I think baptized at two days old is too quick). Thank you.
Carol
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Cathy
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2009 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

Many of the babies were baptized the same day. Remember back then they believed the baby would go to hell if they died and were not baptized. 2 days was typical.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 3:19 am    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

cresthaven2 wrote:
Nuccia,
How did your great great-grandfather have his birthdate in 1883 amended? Just found out the birthdate on grandfather's original atto di nascita which was registered by the midwife listed the date as 8 February 1864, born in Potenza - all his US documents (he lived in US for 44 years and was never naturalized) have his birth date as 3 February 1864 (date family always knew it to be). He was baptised on 10 February 1864 in San Michele (I think baptized at two days old is too quick). Thank you.
Carol

In my great grandfather's case, he wrote away for the amendment because he knew the parents names were incorrect. In your case its a whole different story. The birthdate on his birth act is the correct one regardless of what the US documents say. Italians did not put a lot of emphasis on birthdates (I think some still don't) so by the time they got to the US they all used the wrong one. Rule of thumb.. always use the information given closest to the actual event (Primary Source). In this case it would be the birth act.

Secondly, as Cathy mentioned, usually baptisms occurred almost immediately - sometimes the same day, sometimes the next day back then so two days is definitely not too soon.

Its difficult to apply for an amendment for someone who is deceased - and very expensive. You would have to go to court and actually be able to prove the information. I believe in your case it would be almost impossible. They more than likely would not change the date of someone's birth. Name changes, parents names, etc would be easier but still very difficult and costly.

Use the Feb 8th date. Remember, the mid wife was there when he was born so she put the correct date. Another thing to look at is the registration date. She probably registered the birth on the 9th or 10th of February and maybe thats where the mix up is. I have cousins that use the registration date as their birthdate. BTW..my great grandfather used a different birthday on all his US document too..same year, same month but different day.

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 3:21 am    Post subject: Re: HUGE Death act errors? Reply with quote

cresthaven2 wrote:
Nuccia,
How did your great great-grandfather have his birthdate in 1883 amended? Just found out the birthdate on grandfather's original atto di nascita which was registered by the midwife listed the date as 8 February 1864, born in Potenza - all his US documents (he lived in US for 44 years and was never naturalized) have his birth date as 3 February 1864 (date family always knew it to be). He was baptised on 10 February 1864 in San Michele (I think baptized at two days old is too quick). Thank you.
Carol

In my great grandfather's case, he wrote away for the amendment because he knew the parents names were incorrect. In your case its a whole different story. The birthdate on his birth act is the correct one regardless of what the US documents say. Italians did not put a lot of emphasis on birthdates (I think some still don't) so by the time they got to the US they all used the wrong one. Rule of thumb.. always use the information given closest to the actual event (Primary Source). In this case it would be the birth act.

Secondly, as Cathy mentioned, usually baptisms occurred almost immediately - sometimes the same day, sometimes the next day back then so two days is definitely not too soon.

Its difficult to apply for an amendment for someone who is deceased - and very expensive. You would have to go to court and actually be able to prove the information. I believe in your case it would be almost impossible. They more than likely would not change the date of someone's birth. Name changes, parents names, etc would be easier but still very difficult and costly.

Use the Feb 8th date. Remember, the mid wife was there when he was born so she put the correct date. Another thing to look at is the registration date. She probably registered the birth on the 9th or 10th of February and maybe thats where the mix up is. I have cousins that use the registration date as their birthdate. BTW..my great grandfather used a different birthday on all his US document too..same year, same month but different day. I think because unlike in the US and Canada, birth certificates were not issued in Italy, only registered so it was unlikely he ever even saw his birth act. He just went by what he was told.

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