Question about records

tjbrn · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: Question about records

Other information that I have indicates that my grandmother and her brother were born in 1898 and 1895 respectively; however these to birth docs seem to indicate otherwise. Any thoughts regarding this?
Calogero Monte
img387.imageshack.us/i...190ym0.jpg

Giuseppa Monte
img107.imageshack.us/i...rthpe3.jpg

Carole · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

Well Tom - the first birth document was registered on 15th November 1898 at 10.40 (?)am

But at the end of the registration I am certain the Ufficiale dello Stato Civile (Registrar) has written:

"....was born a child of the male sex that they (witnesses) presented, and who gives the name of Calogero and who I recognise (acknowledge) was without life."
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The second document for Giuseppa:
Birth registered 1898 20th March at 10.30am

Born (it looks like)
at 10.05am on the 16th of the same month.

tjbrn · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

Another trip to my local FHC is in order. I am assuming that a death would have been recorded in the same year for the child in question. What is confusing to me is that my grandmother's brother Calogero was supposedly born in 1895 and did emigrate to America along with my grandmother and others in her family. I have found draft registration records for Calogero where he consistently gives his birth in the year 1895.

tjbrn · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

Another question. This just received this mail from Italy. Does this mean that Grazia Pizzo had a twin sister, Sebastiana? Or am I completely off base?

img383.imageshack.us/i...191xw9.jpg

ricbru · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

The complete name is Grazia Sebastiana PIZZO
I hope it helps
bye Riccardo

tjbrn · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

Thanks, it does.

Luca · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

Trascrizione

Calogero Monti
img387.imageshack.us/i...190ym0.jpg

L'anno 1898, addì 15 di Novembre a ore a.m. 10 e minuti 40 nella casa Comunale. Avanti di me Vaschiera Giuseppe Segretario Comunale, delegato del Sindaco [...] Ufficiale di Stato Civile del Comune di S. Giuseppe Jato è comparso Monti Salvatore di anni 30 xxx, domiciliato in questo Comune, il quale mi ha dichiarato che alle ore 1,30 a.m. del dì 13 corrente nella casa posta in xxx da Licata Anna di anni 30 sua legittima moglie seco lui convivente è nato un bambino di sesso mascolino che mi si presenta, e a cui dà il nome di Calogero e che io riconosco essere senza vita.
A quanto sopra...

BillieDeKid · V.I.P. Joined: Oct 26, 2007 Posts: 1221 Location: Illinois

This might help Tom. Manifest for Giuseppa and her brothers, sisters etc. She is age 9 in 1907 and the brother you're looking for was 11. So try looking in 1896 for his birth record.
www.ellisisland.org/EI...&line=0016

Hope this helps.

Luca · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:18 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

tjbrn wrote:

... I am assuming that a death would have been recorded in the same year for the child in question.

It's not sure. The child was considered born already "dead" and maybe no one record could exist.
Luca

BillieDeKid wrote:

... the brother you're looking for was 11. So try looking in 1896 for his birth record.

Very strange. If a Calogero still existed in 1896 it's almost impossible that another brother (also if born dead) was called (in 1898) Calogero too.

Luca

BillieDeKid · V.I.P. Joined: Oct 26, 2007 Posts: 1221 Location: Illinois

Hi Luca

Yes I agree. I looked at the ages of the parents for Calogero (image Tom posted) father 35 mother 33 in 1898. For Giuseppa (image Tom posted) father 30 mother 30. One name Monti and other is Monte (but I think the registrar just makes a mistake with the name). Maybe a huge coincidence that the mothers and fathers have the same names??? I don't know. But.........Giuseppa born in March and Calogero born in November same year!!!! That is only 8 months !?! Doesn't make sense.

Carole · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

Luca wrote:

Trascrizione

Calogero Monti
img387.imageshack.us/i...190ym0.jpg

L'anno 1898, addì 15 di Novembre a ore a.m. 10 e minuti 40 nella casa Comunale. Avanti di me Vaschiera Giuseppe Segretario Comunale, delegato del Sindaco [...] Ufficiale di Stato Civile del Comune di S. Giuseppe Jato è comparso Monti Salvatore di anni 30 xxx, domiciliato in questo Comune, il quale mi ha dichiarato che alle ore 1,30 a.m. del dì 13 corrente nella casa posta in xxx da Licata Anna di anni 30 sua legittima moglie seco lui convivente è nato un bambino di sesso mascolino che mi si presenta, e a cui dà il nome di Calogero e che io riconosco essere senza vita.
A quanto sopra...

In the yeaar of 1898, on the 15th November in the anti meridian hour 10 and 40 minutes in the Comune. Before me Calogero Monti Comune Secretary, Delegate to the Mayor (...) Official of the State Registry Office of S. Giuseppe Jato Comune appeared Monti Salvatore 30 years of age xxx, domiciled in this comune, who declared to me that at the hour of 1.30am on the 13th of the current month in the post house in xxx of Licata Anna 30 years of age and his legitimate wife living with him was born a child of the male sex who was presented to me, and to who was given the name of Calogero that I recognise to be without life.

BillieDeKid · V.I.P. Joined: Oct 26, 2007 Posts: 1221 Location: Illinois

BillieDeKid wrote:

Hi Luca

Yes I agree. I looked at the ages of the parents for Calogero (image Tom posted) father 35 mother 33 in 1898. For Giuseppa (image Tom posted) father 30 mother 30. One name Monti and other is Monte (but I think the registrar just makes a mistake with the name). Maybe a huge coincidence that the mothers and fathers have the same names??? I don't know. But.........Giuseppa born in March and Calogero born in November same year!!!! That is only 8 months !?! Doesn't make sense.

One more thing.......the age of Anna on the manifest is 42 in 1907. So the age of Anna 33 in 1898 for Giuseppa's birth act matches the manifest but not the age of Anna for the birth act Tom posted for Calogero.

Carole · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

BillieDeKid wrote:

Hi Luca

Yes I agree. I looked at the ages of the parents for Calogero (image Tom posted) father 35 mother 33 in 1898. For Giuseppa (image Tom posted) father 30 mother 30. One name Monti and other is Monte (but I think the registrar just makes a mistake with the name). Maybe a huge coincidence that the mothers and fathers have the same names??? I don't know. But.........Giuseppa born in March and Calogero born in November same year!!!! That is only 8 months !?! Doesn't make sense.

But it could be that the boy who was born dead was not a full term pregnancy!

BillieDeKid · V.I.P. Joined: Oct 26, 2007 Posts: 1221 Location: Illinois

That could be true Carole but I don't think that the Calogero document Tom posted is correct. I could be all wrong (like that's never happened before) but between the manifest and the correct info for Giuseppa and the draft card..............I don't know, this should be interesting.

Luca · Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

I agree with Carole.

Carole wrote:

But it could be that the boy who was born dead was not a full term pregnancy!

The mistakes with the ages happened very frequently. Moreover it's very very strange having two couples with the same name.
It could be different if Tom will found a Calogero born in 1896 and no one in 1899 or 1900.
What we need is the parent's names for Salvatore and Anna. Do you know if exist church records for the same period?

Luca