Question about records

tjbrn · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Question about records

I reviewed the microfilm from San Giuseppe this week at my local FHC. Alas, I discovered nothing new. I do have two images that pertain to my research and would appreciate help translating the contents.

img254.imageshack.us/i...te1io7.jpg

img135.imageshack.us/i...te2eu6.jpg

Luca · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

I can't view the images. Is my computer that don't work or is the link?

Luca

tjbrn · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

Luca,
Sorry, I was outside working since it is a glorious day here. I tried the links and they both work fine for me. Let me know and I'll upload the images again.

Luca · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

Pag 1
L'anno 1860 il dì 7 del mese di Novembre alle ore 23 (NOTA: il calcolo delle ore era diverso da come lo intendiamo noi oggi).
Avanti noi Benedetto Gioé Presidente(?) del Municipio ed Ufficiale dello Stato Civile del Comune di Belmonte, Distretto di Palermo, Provincia di Palermo è comparso Gaetano Monte di anni 22, di professione contadino, domiciliato in Belmonte, il quale cii ha presentato un bambino ... ed ha dichiarato che lo stesso è nato da Teresa Santangelo sua moglie di anni 28, domiciliato in Belmonte, e da detto comparente (dichiarante) ... nel giorno 6 del mese di Novembre, anno corrente alle ore 19, nella casa di proprietà e abitazione di essi coniugi Monte e Santangelo

On the right column it is said that Salvatore was christened on the day 7

Pag 2
Lo stesso ha inoltre dichiarato di dare al bambino il nome di Salvatore

Luca

Carole · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

Luca wrote:

Pag 1
L'anno 1860 il dì 7 del mese di Novembre alle ore 23 (NOTA: il calcolo delle ore era diverso da come lo intendiamo noi oggi).
Avanti noi Benedetto Gioé Presidente(?) del Municipio ed Ufficiale dello Stato Civile del Comune di Belmonte, Distretto di Palermo, Provincia di Palermo è comparso Gaetano Monte di anni 22, di professione contadino, domiciliato in Belmonte, il quale cii ha presentato un bambino ... ed ha dichiarato che lo stesso è nato da Teresa Santangelo sua moglie di anni 28, domiciliato in Belmonte, e da detto comparente (dichiarante) ... nel giorno 6 del mese di Novembre, anno corrente alle ore 19, nella casa di proprietà e abitazione di essi coniugi Monte e Santangelo
l quale cii ha presentato un bambino ... ed ha dichiarato che lo stesso è nato da Teresa Santangelo sua moglie di anni 28, domiciliato in Belmonte, e da detto comparente (dichiarante) ... nel giorno 6 del mese di Novembre, anno corrente alle ore 19, nella casa di proprietà e abitazione di essi coniugi

On the right column it is said that Salvatore was christened on the day 7
Pag 2
Lo stesso ha inoltre dichiarato di dare al bambino il nome di Salvatore

Luca

The year 1860 the day 7 of the month of November at the hour of 23
(NOTE: the calculation of the hour was different to that which we use today).
Before me Benedetto Gioé President (?) of the Comune and Officer of the State Register of the Comune of Belmonte, District of Palermo, Province of Palermo appeared Gaetano Monte 22 years of age, by profession a peasant, living in Belmonte, who presented to me a child... and he declared the the same child was born to Teresa Santangelo his wife 28 years of age, living in Belmonte, and the said declarer... on the 6th day od November, in the current year at the hour of 19, in the house owned and inhabited by the couple Monte and Santangelo

The same also declared that he had given the child the name of Salvatore

tjbrn · Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

How was the calculation of hours different? 23=11?

Luca · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:29 am Post subject: Re: Question about records

I can't say. I think it was a bit different also from place to place. Here is a link about this question (but I think it don't solve):
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock
or this one about "ora canonica" (sorry: it's in Italian)
www.mesturini.com/tipologie.htm

Ciao
Luca

tjbrn · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Question about records

Thanks Luca. An extract that I received from the same document lists the birth year as 1863 which I could see was clearly not what was written in the images of the document I uploaded. Time is an interesting and perplexing subject that is perhaps as much a matter of interpretation as it is precise measurement. Einstein's Clocks, Poincare's Maps - Empires of Time is an engaging book about time by Peter Galison; unfortunately, it is in English.

Luca · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Question about records

tjbrn wrote:

Thanks Luca. An extract that I received from the same document lists the birth year as 1863 ...

Ci sono 2 possibilità:

1) L'Ufficiale di Stato Civile non ha completato la parte della data relativa all'anno: essendo già prestampato "Milleottocentosessanta" potrebbe non aver aggiunto a mano "tre" (improbabile, ma non impossibile)
2) Il Salvatore nato nel 1860 potrebbere essere morto poco tempo dopo la nascita e ad un altro fratello nato nel 1863 potrebbe essere stato dato lo stesso nome. Basta controllare i microfilm del 1863 e verificare se questa informazione è giusta oppure no. In alternativa puoi controllare i registri dei morti che vanno dal 1860 al 1863 per verificare se è presente la morte del primo Salvatore.

Ciao
Luca

tjbrn · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Question about records

The second possibility seems most plausible. When I get access to the Belmonte films that I've requested, I'll check into that.

Carole · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

tjbrn wrote:

How was the calculation of hours different? 23=11?

Listen guys, I know this is a serious thread/question, but how come there are all these different possible ways to tell the time here in Italy?

I ask because many of the people who made these reports to their Registrar were country people not too different from those where I live...

Yet here - HTG - even the darned roosters know when it's 4am - EVERY DAY!!!

Luca · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

Tom, I'm very happy you can understand my italian

(I'm a real negligent Mr. Green

)

Luca

Carole · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

Luca wrote:

Tom, I'm very happy you can understand my italian

(I'm a real negligent Mr. Green

)

Luca

So am I!!!
Wink

tjbrn · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

Given enough time I can figure out the easy stuff but I wouldn't dare attempt to respond in Italian in writing or in speech. When we were in Italy in 1990 I was mistaken for a native Italian everywhere we went despite being over 6 ft tall. In Rome a woman complained to me at one of the churches we were visiting. The church was closed and the woman was frantically demanding to know why the church was closed. Surprised

In Firenze I was perusing books on the Piazza di Michelangelo when the vendor shouted to me "Inglese! Inglese!" I may have spoiled the moment when I turned to him and said, "I know, I know", in English. Wink

We ducked into a little place in Milan to get out of the cold and to savor a cappuccino. My wife waited at the bar [not Luca's bar, a marble one in the shop] while I got in line to get waited on. When I ordered in my weak American restaurant Italian the lady looked at me sternly and said "due cappuccini, cappuccini" She waited until I repeated "due cappuccini" before she took my money and gave me our cappuccini Embarassed

I am certain she realized I was a foreigner and not a native speaker with poor language skills. Each time I think about that incident I can't help smiling.

tjbrn · Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Question about records

And Carole, there is a great YouTube video about how Italians tell time but it may not pass mustard in this forum, although it really isn't foul or anything like that.